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March 08, 2010

Comments

Question for you re: your Aside comment:
While your paradigm argument fits for hard science, I'm not convinced it holds true for the social sciences and history. I agree that a shift has to be explained in light of the old paradigm; however, it doesn't necessarily have to extend it or add to it or answer the same questions moving forward. It doesn't even have to blow it fully out of the water. Take anthropology for example...over time, our questions about human behavior and ideology change. Explaining this is a messy business and theory often ends up being more about having a varied tool kit at your disposal vs. a solid paradigm like you mentioned in physics. Therefore, a new paradigm may arise that is relevant yet fails to address everything covered by the prior - because the questions answered by the prior no longer seem to be culturally important. What are your thoughts on this? I haven't read the book yet but was curious to talk to you about the aside comment because I heard you mention it on Sunday.

You're right, this is much of what I was reacting against. Insightful as always.

Though I havan't read the book, my thoughts have been running along the same line, including the reference to special relativity. It may be sufficient to observe that, in proposing a new understanding or a new articulation of an old understanding, we don't need refer to those who came before as idiots. If we find ourselves doing that, we are bound to get some well deserved push back. Physics found a way around this problem. The church needs to do so as well.

Hi Jennifer - my quick response to your question about paradigm shifts in the "soft" sciences is that I'm not convinced that the "soft" sciences individually have universal paradigms yet that can shift.

Most of them are in what I call the "zoology" phase - they're gathering data and making small conjectures. But there's as yet, no overarching model that explains multitudes of apparently unrelated phenomenon.

trivial point--there's no "u" in Brian McLaren's name

Thanks Peter - I fixed that. Sorry Brian!

I am enjoying the book too. I am sure it will provoke lots of good discussion.
But while I am nit-picking, "greek" should be capitalized.

Reading the NT through "Jewish Eyes" seems like a fundamentally flawed approach since it was written hundreds of years after Christianity had ceased to be an offshoot of Judaism in any meaningful way and was written by people who were essentially part of a Helenistic culture. Judaism is marginally more relevant to the NT than other religious traditions, but in no real sense is it the cultural context of the gospels.

The philosophy attributed to Jesus in the NT derives very little from the Mosaic tradition and a great deal from the popular philosophy of the dominant cultures of the Mediterranean, the Greeks and the Romans. This is why it was such a marketable religion, because it was compatible with the already established worldview of the dominant cultures, which Judaism was not.

That being the case, if you want to adapt Christianity to be more marketable to a contemporary audience you would need to do what was attempted in the early 19th century with the "social gospel" movement and redefine it in terms of what contemporary audiences understand as naturally good and culturally desirable.

The problem with this idea is that if you follow it to its natural conclusion what you end up with is no longer going to be recognizable as Christianity, just as early Christianity was eventually no longer identifiable as an offshoot of Judaism. That seems self-defeating.

Dave

Dave - I think your point is well taken, except that the chronology you list is slightly off. Most people today are in fact arguing the earliest books of the New Testament - Paul's letters - are probably from the mid-50's AD if not a little earlier. That's only 20 years after Christ's death and resurrection. Most folks date the "divorce" of Christianity and Judaism to about the end of the 1st century. So it's reasonable to read the NT writings through Jewish eyes...

But, as you point out the "Jewish eyes" of the 1 century have a different set of lenses than did the eyes of the time of the writing of the final works of the OT. So claiming we need to read the NT through Jewish eyes doesn't really help very much. Which set of Jewish eyes do we use?

As to your last point - "Christianity - as according to the Church" per se is a wonderfully malleable concept. Jenkins book on the lost churches of the East (the Nestorian churches that died out about the time of the rise of the Khans) points out that the stories that Jesus told have been used to a multitude of ways in different cultural settings. The key question that people have been asking for a very long time is "what is the fundamental core" that must be present for a church to the part of the Church?

Shows how out of date my knowledge of these subjects is. I was taught the earliest books of the NT dated to the mid 2nd century.

Anyway, it seems to me that the answer is to educate the audience rather than to change the church. There is a long history of efforts to adapt the church to the marketplace and the results hve been mixed at best and we're still dealing with the consequences of bad decisions made 1000 years ago.

But this is where I come up short because I'm not comfortable with the political implications of changing society to make it more receptive to a positive Christian
message. Though I do like the idea of finding a way to convert fundamentalists and other Christian extremists to a more reasonable form of Christianity. That's a potential market which is quite large and might benefit from being converted to a gospel of love rather than one of hate. This is the kind of thing I worry about too much with my involvement with texas politics.

Or, one could become familiar with the canon and, in the process, understand the network of ideas behind "Greco/Roman" Christianity. Why re-invent the wheel unless you have a stunningly new take on the Jesus?

Just a couple of questions.
Is "ridicule" quite the right term?

But perhaps more to the point, you seem to suggest that the acceptance of the Reformation model of Christianity is not being accepted for lack of teaching it. Yet, the Pew polls indicate that there is a great deal of lateral movement among Christian expressions, where presumably the Reformation model IS being taught. So something else would seem to be going on; folks are finding its teaching in its traditional and (I would posit)limited and rigid forms unsatisfying in some way(s).

By and large, outside of academia (= in the churches), there seems to be little taught about the broader picture of Christianity. There is little taught about that "malleability" and diversity of thought over time, or even much about the evolution of Biblical canon. Hence, we lose the opportunity for creating knowledgeable and animated discussion, and thereby fostering greater internalization of our faith(s), which in its purest form IS deeply personal, not worn as a garment (uniform?).

Even a response or two above suggest that some of the deeper questions of historical Christianity cannot even be broached because they depart from orthodoxy. And churches understandably are inclined to steer away from the controversy that might arise from such questions. So such things are addressed dismissively or pejoratively to keep such dangerous or doubt-inducing ideas at bay.

But Christianity was arguably born of unorthodoxy, and its specifics have continued to be in controversy decade by decade, and century by century [e.g., in small ways, in denominational differences; in larger form, the schism between Eastern and Western arms of Christianity].

So it makes no sense at all to me that the possibility doesn't exist for orthodoxy to stray again in our own time. Whether the challenges are right or wrong, how would we know without engaging some of the questions being asked by writers like McLaren [that many (formerly mainstream?) Christians are asking]? The sheer number of books by authors/thinkers like Brian should give at least some pause for thought.

In short, I think the central-tendency bell-curve of Christianity has widened greatly in recent years, unnoticed by a great many within the orthodox church. That is interesting in part because it does perhaps reflect something that has eluded the church in its earlier ages, and that is a growing tolerance for diversity within the Christian community.

JimA

Hi Jim - actually my point is not that the Reformation model isn't taught. It's that the classical worldview that McLaren label's the Graeco-Roman world view isn't taught in secular education any more.

And because the Graeco-Roman world view underlies the Reformation model of salvation in the presence of God, the reformation model, which is still taught, is no longer as effective as it was.

And with that quibble, I think McLaren's mainline of the rest of his argument so far as I've read, goes on.

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